In March, Reason‘s Nick Gillespie had a conversation with Dan Carlin, the host of Hardcore History, one of the great pioneers of podcasting. Carlin’s meticulously researched and passionately delivered episodes on topics ranging from Julius Caesar’s campaigns in Gaul to Imperial Japan’s brutal conquest of Asia have garnered millions of downloads. Gillespie and Carlin delved into discussions about understanding the moral decisions made in the past, how Carlin would update his book The End Is Always Near in light of the COVID-19 pandemic, and the feasibility of drawing meaningful lessons from history.
Reason: Who makes up your audience, and what do you believe they gain from your show?
Carlin: I don’t inquire about their personal details or delve into their demographics. While I value their privacy as I do my own, modern podcasting tools provide us with some insights. Initially, our audience was more U.S.-centric, but we’ve observed a growing international interest.
Regarding your question, I prefer to maintain a level of detachment from the listeners. I believe the information provided by podcasting platforms suffices.
In 2019, you appeared on this podcast to discuss your book The End Is Always Near: Apocalyptic Moments from the Bronze Age Collapse to Nuclear Near Misses. This book was released shortly before the onset of COVID-19 as the latest apocalyptic event. Did you feel like you were unintentionally predicting material for a revised edition?
To be frank, while many had forewarned about the vulnerability to another pandemic, I was among the latecomers to acknowledge this. It was not a revelation to anticipate such an event. The timing was simply peculiar.
During the pandemic, did you notice a change in interest from your audience, or was there a difference in engagement?
We experienced a surge in listenership during COVID, which has since declined, likely due to the return to normalcy post-pandemic. One advantage of audio content is its accessibility while engaging in other activities. During the pandemic, listeners could multitask while tuning in to our show. Perhaps we served as a form of distraction, given the length of our episodes.
Is history shaped by overarching forces that span entire eras, or by influential individuals who alter its course?
I believe history is influenced by the convergence of two factors: the personalities of key figures and the prevailing events and trends of their time. When these elements intersect, significant historical shifts occur.
To gain perspective, I often contemplate alternative figures in pivotal roles. For instance, envisioning different leaders facing critical moments can highlight the impact of their presence on historical outcomes.
Are there historical figures whom you regard as heroes?
While I appreciate and admire numerous individuals, I do not engage in hero worship. Instead, I contemplate whether I could have demonstrated the same courage and resilience as those who faced immense challenges, particularly during the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s. Rather than idolizing heroes, I measure my own capacity against their extraordinary actions.
Daniel Akst authored the book War By Other Means, which explored conscientious objectors in World War II. Reflecting on their steadfastness in the face of adversity, I am humbled by their resolve. It prompts self-reflection on how I might respond in similar circumstances.
While you identify as a pessimist—or perhaps a realist—your podcast often highlights the cyclical nature of societal collapse and the inevitable end of civilizations. Yet, you also emphasize progress and improvement. When confronted with events like COVID, do you perceive an overall positive trajectory, or do you maintain a pessimistic outlook in the long run but remain optimistic in the short term?
For me, this question navigates between the macro and micro perspectives.
There are always bad places to find oneself on a micro level, such as being at the bottom of the economic scale or trapped in a dictatorship like North Korea. On a macro level, there are times and places that are better than others. Life is full of change, both good and bad, and it’s important to understand the context and historical processes that shape events.
When it comes to studying history, it’s important to remember that what is considered important is subjective and can vary depending on individual interests. The past is like an infinite attic where one can rummage through and construct stories to make sense of the present and future. It’s crucial to avoid judging people from the past based on modern moral standards, as their actions were often guided by different beliefs and perspectives. They believed they were doing good. In the future, people may look back on us and criticize us for things we couldn’t possibly know. An example is Winston Churchill, who is revered in some places but despised in others. It’s important to acknowledge both perspectives and not dismiss them. Churchill faced criticism during his lifetime, showing that opinions on him have always been mixed. We must consider the context of historical figures and understand that they were products of their time. When choosing topics for his podcasts, the host focuses on his interest and knowledge in the subject. He looks for stories with philosophical themes to explore and ensures a diverse mix of topics for his audience. “The idea of the Romans and the Celtic people is appealing to me, so I’ll tune in to that show.” There are efforts to diversify historical periods and themes.
“What show brought you the most joy?”
I once did a show called “The Organization of Peace” about the League of Nations. It was a hopeful attempt to envision a better world post-WWI. The show highlighted aspects like the concept of Esperanto for better communication to prevent conflicts. The League of Nations symbolized a naive hope for a better future.
“What role does history play for you?”
I see history as a lesson on what can occur. It doesn’t provide straightforward answers like “appeasement doesn’t work,” as each situation is unique. History shows how events unfold contextually, giving insight into potential outcomes based on patterns. People often misuse history to support their beliefs, so it’s crucial to question the narrative being presented. The George Santayana quote about learning from history is misunderstood, as people often draw incorrect conclusions. It’s essential to approach historical teachings with skepticism and analyze the motives behind them.
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